Is Paradise referring to Hades/ Abraham's bosom ?

[Ralph Wilms]

Luke 23:42-43
And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come in Your kingdom.
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise>

Is Paradise here referring to Hades/ Abraham's bosom, because Jesus speaks about paradise before 70 AD ?
Any thoughts ?

[Joseph Vincent]

Paradise was a place like a garden or a place of rest in the Bible. This word was often used as a burial place were descent law abiding people were laid to rest in a tomb that was in the middle of a well manicured garden (like the garden of Eden). This would denote that the thief on the cross was going to be buried in a resting place or a garden where Jesus was laid, rather than thrown into the field of the sculls (gehenna) to rot as a common criminal. By stating this Jesus was indicating to the thief that his status was righteous before God because of his faith, and that he would be counted as such and not thrown into the place of evil doers. It did not mean that he, or anyone else, would necessarily travel to a heavenly place up in the sky or outer space somewhere and it is not a purgatory type holding cell in the middle of the earth or anywhere else. It is not and was not “Abraham’s bosom” in my opinion.

Hell, Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, and Abraham’s Bosom
Hell is the tormenting anguish someone may go through as a result of their rebellious actions that will lead to their death or the grave. The Jews went through “hell” before perishing in the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem after a three and half year siege from the Romans. The “wailing” and “gnashing of teeth” was not performed by dead corpses, but was experienced by living Jews who witnessed their ultimate destruction occurring before their eyes. Hell in the Old Testament was commonly thought to be a “state of emptiness” or loneliness and separation or abandonment from God. This Jewish idea is primarily one that entails hopelessness and being in “gehenna” even while a Jew lived and that to be brought out of this place and delivered from the enemy was the typical Old Testament application and desire of those who were under duress. Whatever the case may be, hell, gehenna, hades and Sheol are universally thought to be essentially the same thing or interconnected in some way by both Jews and Christians, and was thrown into the lake of fire once the resurrection occurred and once all who were then dead or living were judged at AD 70. Today a person either dies to be with the Lord if they are a believer, or they die to be separated from God forever if they are not a believer.

[Ryan]

Another possibility—

This is something you'd have to ask Sam about for verification, but as I understand it the original Greek texts didn't have certain punctuations—my Apostolic Bible Polyglot, for instance doesn't have the comma after "you" in verse 43; these, I was told, were added in by the English translators according to their best judgment. If so your verse could possibly be rendered "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise." Notice how the comma re-placement changes the meaning. According to Revelation 2:7 cf 22:2, 14 Paradise would seem to be the New Jerusalem, since that is where the Tree of Life is, thus making the popular rendering of your verse an apparent contradiction to the rest of Scripture, as of course, Jesus did not go into the NJ that day.
....Then again Paul does talk of a man raptured to Paradise briefly in 2 Corinthians 12:4, so who knows.

[Joseph Vincent]

Ryan...the problem with that view (the comma placement) is that every other place where Jesus makes the comment, "truly, truly I say to you" it NEVER accompanies the word "today." This would be a very odd grammatical thing for the writer to insert as Jesus having said this, unless Jesus was referring to the "day" that the thief would die, and not the day Jesus was speaking. I mean, really, did the thief not know that "today" was the day Jesus was speaking to him those words?

I really think this argument is a rediculous one (saying that Jesus said, "truly I tell you today"). See my above comments for a more correct explanation. Jesus knew that they were both going to be dead that day from the crucifixion...and he was telling the thief that he would not be thrown to dogs as an unrighteous person...but would join Jesus in being taken to the burial place of the righteous. Jesus was essentially telling the man that he was saved...nothing more.

[Jason King]

You're right, Ralph. The paradise at the time was at Abraham's bosom - the lack of fear of death and condemnation. The problem I have with Joseph's comment is that Jesus wasn't buried in a garden for no good reason - Joseph of Arimathea gave his tomb to him. He even had Pilate's permission to do this. This was symbolic (in my opinion) to the reversal of the fall in the garden of Eden. Sin entered the world in a garden and it would now be destroyed in a garden after Jesus rose from the dead. I don't think there is any evidence from the text that Jesus was assuring him that he would be buried in a garden. I know if I was dying that I would not be comforted by being told how I was going to be buried. Jesus tells him he'll be in paradise because he asks Jesus to remember him when he enters his kingdom. Well, sure enough, being at Abraham's bosom would make you his offspring which was to inherit the Land (heaven), which only would occur once Jesus entered his kingdom in 70.

[Ralph Wilms]

Thanks alot Jason for your comments, and it makes sense !

Jason King said:

You're right, Ralph. The paradise at the time was at Abraham's bosom - the lack of fear of death and condemnation. The problem I have with Joseph's comment is that Jesus wasn't buried in a garden for no good reason - Joseph of Arimathea gave his tomb to him. He even had Pilate's permission to do this. This was symbolic (in my opinion) to the reversal of the fall in the garden of Eden. Sin entered the world in a garden and it would now be destroyed in a garden after Jesus rose from the dead. I don't think there is any evidence from the text that Jesus was assuring him that he would be buried in a garden. I know if I was dying that I would not be comforted by being told how I was going to be buried. Jesus tells him he'll be in paradise because he asks Jesus to remember him when he enters his kingdom. Well, sure enough, being at Abraham's bosom would make you his offspring which was to inherit the Land (heaven), which only would occur once Jesus entered his kingdom in 70.

[Michael Bennett]

I have heard 2 good arguments.

1. I tell you this day (pause) you will be with me in paradise. Instead of "this day".

2. Look at what it says here...

Paradise: according to The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection:

[Ryan]

I see what you're saying Joseph and I think I have to surrender my original answer, (which, by the way, I only tendered as a possibility to consider, not as a positive answer) though i wouldn't go so far as to call it "ridiculous". I wondered about "today" and allowed that it may have been rhetorical, say for some sort of emphasis, like the word "truly" (would the thief otherwise think Jesus was being false?), or "I say to you", which is also semantically redundant. Nevertheless, it's still a problematic verse, especially considering that Jesus that day went into the bottom-most parts of the earth, to the "depths of the seas", whereas the man in 2 Corithians 12:2,3,4 was "caught up", as commonly interpreted, to Paradise. Paradise, in Revelation 2:7 is where the Tree of Life is, but the latter is in the New Jerusalem, Revelation 22:2, which comes down out of Heaven, not up from the earth. Unless Paradise was initially "in the earth" but caught up to heaven, say at the Ascension, which explanation Ephesians 2:5, 6 may allow if forced; thence, once perfected in A.D. 70, brought back down again to combine the things in heaven and earth. Another possibilty is that He was using some sort of prophetic prolepsis as He did in John 12:31 "Now is te judging of this world" and Luke 10:18 "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" which events didn't actually occur until c. 66-67 A.D. at the end of the Thousand Years.... Whatever, I'm going to bed.

[Joseph Vincent]

Ryan,

I think you are getting the right idea. I think most people make way too much out of "today" when Jesus was speaking. When Jesus died he was separated from God's presence and bore the sins of the world as a condemned man. When he died, this spiritual death or condemnation could not contain him because he was without sin, and so he was raised. When Jesus died, he didn't go to "a place" per se...there was no place to go to...lol. It is a realm of the Spirit where no flesh can enter (at least not of this natural order)...so when Jesus tells the man that "today" he would be with Jesus in paradise, all he was suggesting was that the man had been given life. The cry of all the O.T. saints was to go to the depths of sheol because there was nothing after death, no relationship with God at all. To receive "paradise" was to receive what was lost in the garden (fellowship with God). Jesus was restoring this relationship to people while they were alive simply by their faith, yet, we know that the actual prize or reward was not going to be received until the final consumation.

Therefore, I would agree with your assessment, that "today" the man was to be "with Christ" in paradise restored, he was given life, and he was made righteous through Christ. But to say that went to some physical garden or to "heaven" the moment he died? I don't know...does anyone know? Where does a person go today when they die? Where did all the saints go during the 40 years when they died? We do know that certain saints were before the throne of God crying out for vindication, so they were at very least "with Christ" to some degree pre-AD70...yet, they had not received the full prize of the resurrection of "the body" and the fulness of the Kingom.

Again, it's the "here but not yet" syndrome.

To be honest, I really don't even care all that much. Does it really matter when or where the man went that day? Whatever it was, it was some sort of paradise, whether sooner or later.

[Joby Matthews]

Joseph,

What you are saying kind of goes against everything the ancient Jews thought and taught regarding life after death, sheol/hades/paradise. The OT seems clear that to them it was a place, a place Jesus went for three days, a place all people went prior to Christ's work, and a place that was emptied and thrown into the lake of fire. Paradise was to the Jewish mind, Abraham's bosom, a place of rest for souls until they were resurrected out of it. The book of Enoch gives a detailed description of the place, it's various chambers, and it coincides exactly with what Jesus said of it in the store of Lazarus and the rich man. When Christ left that place after three days, he was literally, as the Scriptures say, raised out of the dead ones.

[Joby Matthews]

And to your comment about those between the 40 years, it seems evident that they went to a place under the altar, outside of the holy of holies. The were not sent to the place of the dead (Hades/Sheol) and they were not allowed into heaven until the work of Christ was complete and the doors opened.

So, prior to Christ, people went to the hadean realm, consisting of that section called Paradise/Abraham's bosom, and that other side referred to often as a hell. After Christ, but before his return, they (at least the martyrs) were under the altar outside the holy of holies until Christ opened the gates for all. Now, we today die, we do not "see death" nor do we "die" (the place of the dead), but we go to be given our reward/judgment and our eternal destination.

At least that is what I understand from my studies.