I tried searching for the old thread that Ron did on this but I could not locate it... please let me know if I am way off.  I've been doing some thinking about the lake of fire and what it means and to me its the most complicated concept in the Scriptures.

2 Timothy 1:10
"but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, WHO HAS DESTROYED DEATH and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."

Death reigned during the Old Age from Adam to Christ.  After Jesus rose, he canceled the written code of condemnation.  Therefore, to disobey Jesus after he did this is to then be handed back over to death... a second death... right?

2 Corinthians 5:14
"For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore ALL DIED."

Those baptized into Jesus were baptized into his death.  In doing so, they died.  They died to the law, to sin and to death.  Their bodies considered dead and their spirits alive.  So it is apparent that they came to life at this time, and NO death had a hold on them only because NO death had a hold over Jesus.

Jesus is constantly saying that the people would be judged by their works, as do the apostles.  This is because what you DO makes you alive in Christ or dead.  The wheat are alive, the chaff is dead and burned - a separation is made.  Yes, the fire had to to with the fires of Jerusalem during the war, but even more it had to do with Jesus' followers - the meek - inheriting the earth.  If you didn't inherit the earth (as God's kingdom) then you were coming to nothing and cut down out of God's spiritual lineage/genealogy.  Your tree was thrown away and burned because it was dead.  But not all unbelievers in that generation were killed by the fires in 70 AD.  In fact, many survived and were sold as slaves.  Almost 70 years later, the survivors of 70 and their next generation formed the Bar Kochba revolt.  Point is that the fire seems to extend throughout this New Age to generations of dead trees and chaff.

Cain was Adam's son just like Seth was, but Cain was cut off from Adam's line and Seth gave way to the generation of his son, Enosh, at which time they "began to call upon the name of the Lord."  Cain was cut off and burned away from God's inheritance like chaff.  In the same way, the physical Jews were cut off and burned away like chaff, but the spiritual Jews endured forever in God's kingdom as the church.  The same pattern even applies with Esau/Jacob, Ishmael/Isaac.  Esau and Ishmael were cut off and burned away like chaff from God's favor, genealogy and blessing; Isaac and Jacob were the ones still connected to the promised inheritance to Abraham and his children.

Death, Hades, Rome, Jerusalem... these things were all burned away from God's people as their inheritance, nor do they wield power to take away their inheritance.

What do you think?

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i think that this hole article is true i mean its telling me every thing that i want to know and i beleave its true i mean i want to start a website where i can right articles and teach people how to spred the word of the lord
Thanks, Alan. I was also going through Enoch today and noticed something that I think conveys what I was trying to express pretty well:

Enoch 38:3 "When, too, the secrets of the righteous shall be revealed, then shall sinners be judged; and impious men shall be afflicted in the presence of the righteous and the elect.

4From that period those who possess the earth shall cease to be powerful and exalted. Neither shall they be capable of beholding the countenances of the holy; for the light of the countenances of the holy, the righteous, and the elect, has been seen by the Lord of spirits.

5Yet shall not the mighty kings of that period be destroyed; but be delivered into the hands of the righteous and the holy.

6Nor thenceforwards shall any obtain commiseration from the Lord of spirits, because their lives in this world will have been completed."


Honestly, I never knew Enoch was so consistent with the bible. How can this not be canonized? I don't get it. :\
any time jason i was thinking about writeing my own book of on what i beleave in a i think im going to start one one day

Jason King said:
Thanks, Alan. I was also going through Enoch today and noticed something that I think conveys what I was trying to express pretty well:

Enoch 38:3 "When, too, the secrets of the righteous shall be revealed, then shall sinners be judged; and impious men shall be afflicted in the presence of the righteous and the elect.

4From that period those who possess the earth shall cease to be powerful and exalted. Neither shall they be capable of beholding the countenances of the holy; for the light of the countenances of the holy, the righteous, and the elect, has been seen by the Lord of spirits.

5Yet shall not the mighty kings of that period be destroyed; but be delivered into the hands of the righteous and the holy.

6Nor thenceforwards shall any obtain commiseration from the Lord of spirits, because their lives in this world will have been completed."


Honestly, I never knew Enoch was so consistent with the bible. How can this not be canonized? I don't get it. :\
Quoted from earlier:

"Davo, since the LoF is the "second death", it seems to me to be to still be condemned under the Law and the curses of it and the OHOE (Death, Hades, Satanic/demonic influence). To become a "new creation" in Christ would mean that we were once of the "old creation" that is bound to sin and death and the Law (and Hades/hell) and Satanic order. This is done at faith, repentance and salvation. So before we enter into God's New Covenant (NHNE) we logically had to be of the old one first, as well as under its curses and ruled by Satan.

Once a person is saved from their sins, it means they had an awareness of their sins through the Law. The Law produces an unsolvable dilemma in which you cannot be saved, thus, it is a tutor to Christ and what he does about sin and atonement. To enter into something means you have to leave something else behind, so we leave behind the OHOE (etc.) and the lake of fire and the other curses thrown in there. In the same way that an animal sacrifice was required under the Law (OHOE), it seems to me that people enter the LoF when they sin because they are dead (spiritually) in their sin. The only remaining sacrifice is that of Jesus. Jesus is what saves us from our sins from going to hell when we die, but he also saves us from the OHOE that remains cursed and judged in the LoF. The LoF has no power (second death) over those who come to life and reign with Christ; the LoF has no power over those who enter New Jerusalem; the LoF has no power over the Passover Lamb and his lambs/sheep. But it does harm and have power over everyone else."


To enter the LoF all you need do is be born into the world and become a sinner. There a person remains dead in their sins until they die to their sins and are raised eternally in Christ. Since the OHOE and its curses and rulers are thrown into the LoF, you remain in that OHOE until you enter the new one... whenever it is a person chooses to do so by faith. This is why blessings and curses remain in even at the summary of Revelation, as well as it being a fulfilled promise to Abraham:

Rev 22:11 "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

A distinction is made between God's people and those cursed.

14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Outside God's City and Temple are people who will not inherit the kingdom of God, those inside do (1Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21). The trees of the righteous are the tree of life and eternal, and they produce fruits in every season. The trees of the wicked produce bad fruits or no fruits and are thrown into the fire (Matt 3:10, 7:19).

18 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

Its even warned here that there is a distinction between the blessed and cursed; the dead and the living on earth. You either inherit the City and Life or the Fire and Second Death.

Gen 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

The promise to Abraham includes two groups: those blessed and those cursed - they are not the same people. One group is blessed with life and the other is cursed with death (1Cor 12:3, 1John 3:24, 4:6, 5:2).

Tying this to the discussion we migrated from, even the OHOE were witnesses against the people of Israel; it was the witness of their blessings and curses for keeping or not keeping the Law. Jesus kept the Law and therefore received every blessing from God and those who obey him also receive all of the blessings and their names are written in the book of life. Those who did not and do not keep it (by love and faith) remain cursed and destroyed.
Davo, Nowhere does this include a non-believer because the good deeds are done in HIS NAME - Jesus. Please don't start stretching the context of verses to push universalism... seriously. The only people who bless are the Christians or become Christians, it is why we are blessed and those outside remain cursed. Why cherry pick a peripheral point I made and side-step the rest that clarifies the distinction between New Jerusalem and those dead in their sins? Universalists take "any" and "all" to refer to 100% persons to be born, but the "any" and "all" refers to all KINDS of people - Jew or Gentile. Gentile refers to anyone and everyone, but not every Gentile will be saved just like not every Jew will be. In fact, the New Jew are those who believe in Christ and the New Gentile are those "dogs" outside of God's City - those who do not have faith or deeds.

"Yes it's interesting that God's blessing would even be given to the NON covenanted i.e., those who would "bless" His covenanted people; this is further borne out specifically in Jesus' teachings where expressed works of graciousness were indeed found to be acceptable by God and blessed accordingly…"

That's not even close to what I said nor what the verse says. The "NON covenanted" people are those outside - the cursed dogs. How you took this and stretched it to contradict itself is absurd.

Rev 22:14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Who's blessed? Those who repent; Abraham's children

Who's a dog? Those who do not repent; Satan's children

Who's outside the city? Those who do not repent; Satan's children

There is not one single blessing for those who remain outside of God's kingdom; Jesus is the blessing.
I understand about the universalist issue. Guidelines on the front page justify your decision - and I agree with it. I didn't see if he responded to me though, oh well. Davo, God bless you, see ya around.

Michael Bennett said:
Jason - I am not going to entertain Davo's conversation here. I don't want any Universalism here till somewhere else (not this site) there are some better arguments. I agree with you.

Matthew 24
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 25
32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats... 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matthew 28
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Galatians 3
8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

BTW - also Jason - don't let anyone say that "perish" only means physical death either.

Luke 21
5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish.
Jason - I am not going to entertain Davo's conversation here. I don't want any Universalism here till somewhere else (not this site) there are some better arguments. I agree with you.

Matthew 24
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 25
32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats...41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matthew 28
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Galatians 3
8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

BTW - also Jason - don't let anyone say that "perish" only means physical death either.

Luke 21
5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish.
Sciota - that sounded pretty solid - I feel pretty much the same way as you.
Good stuff guys. Ken, its pretty amazing to see there is a "second death" at the "second resurrection". I wholly agree that it is Covenantal. The problem I had as a futurist was that the LoF was simply "hell". Either way, however, universalism just simply contradicts Judgment.

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