Partial Preterists who bear false witness (9th Commandment)
* Partial Preterists who bear false witness (9th Commandment)
In this post I am going to show how Ken Gentry (as well as others) constantly break the 9th commandment. I really enjoy alot of what Gentry teaches on the dating of Revelation, as well as Preterism, but recently he has posted some videos against "hyper" preterism.
Even with all of the Partial Preterists condemning us EVERYONE here knows that ANYONE who uses the Partial Preterist hermeneutic will see that LOGICALLY it leads to Full Preterism. The Partial Preterists conscience will have to deal with this (SEE GREAT ADVICE BELOW AT THE END). So even with all of their condemnation all they do is bring attention to our view and we keep growing.
We learned Full Preterism by applying Partial Preterist hermeneutics.
Ken Gentry PARTIAL PRETERIST:
"Evangelical (and reformed) preterists (e.g., R. C. Sproul) take seriously the time texts of Scripture and apply those prophecies to A.D. 70, a redemptive-historical event of enormous consequence." “Think of it: If these words in these verses do not indicate that John expected the events to occur soon, what words could John have used to express such? How could he have said it more plainly?”
These are the same events.
Hebrews 10 (all Partials say this is AD 70)
13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 37For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
1 Cor 15
25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
These are the same events.
Matthew 24 (all Partials say this is AD 70)
12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
1 Cor 15
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
We are just using the Preterist rules laid down by Gentry himself.
2nd Coming
All Partials say this is AD 70.
Luke 21
5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." 20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Below is the same event as above.
Hebrews 9
1Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Hebrews 10 1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 37For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
Resurrection of the Dead
Daniel 12
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then <= (Quoted in Matthew 24:21 which all Partials say is AD 70). But at that time <= (The time of Matthew 24:21) your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. <= Resurrection of the dead 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" <= How long until the resurrection of the dead 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. <= The Jewish War was 42 months When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." <= AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem
Matthew 24 (all Partials say that this is AD 70)
21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. <= (Quote from Daniel 12) 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect <= Resurrection from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened <= Resurrection before the generation passes away
Logic / Hermeneutic Rules
Gene Cook Jr. PARTIAL PRETERIST:
"I hold to all of the time texts"
Jonathan Seraiah PARTIAL PRETERIST:
“If a text says something is ‘near,’ then we must accept it as true”
Ken Gentry PARTIAL PRETERIST:
"Evangelical (and reformed) preterists (e.g., R. C. Sproul) take seriously the time texts of Scripture and apply those prophecies to A.D. 70, a redemptive-historical event of enormous consequence." “Think of it: If these words in these verses do not indicate that John expected the events to occur soon, what words could John have used to express such? How could he have said it more plainly?”
I will demonstrate how hypocritical it is to tell people to hold to the time texts, but then say that Full Preterism is heresy.
Partial Preterists who claim to hold to the "time texts" should hold that they are already in the "city" of Revelation 22. There are time texts regarding the city. The city comes in Revelation 21. Therefore: all Partial Preterists should say they are in the city of Revelation 21 and 22.
Revelation 22
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
Revelation 21
1Then I saw a (A) new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, (B) "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be (C) no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
See A, B, C above and compare to A, B, C below.
Therefore:
(A) This event should be fulfilled according to Partial Preterists hermeneutics.
2 Peter 3
12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
(B) This event should be fulfilled according to Partial Preterists hermeneutics.
1 Thessalonians 4
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Thessalonians 5
9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him
(C) This event should be fulfilled according to Partial Preterists hermeneutics.
1 Corinthians 15
55"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
False Witness (excerpt from an article)
The Ninth Commandment
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
(Exod. 20:16).
This commandment binds the tongue as to its behaviour. Calvin remarks: "Just as the previous commandment ties the hands, so this one ties the tongue" (Brief Outline of the Christian Faith (1537), newly trans- lated by Stuart Olyott and published as Truth for All Time, Edinburgh: Banner of Truth Trust, 1998, p. 20). The Scripture calls slandering 'attacking with the tongue' (Jer. 18:18).
Augustine said, 'The tongue inflicts greater wounds than the sword.' Thomas Watson adds, 'The wounds of the tongue no physician can heal' (The Ten Commandments, London: Banner of Truth Trust, 1965, p. 169). He goes on: 'As it is a sin against this commandment to raise a false report of another, so it is to receive a false report before we have examined it . . . He that raises a slander, carries the devil in his tongue; and he that receives it, carries the devil in his ear.' Watson shows that two things are particularly forbidden in this commandment: slandering our neighbour and false witness against our neighbour. Again, there are two kinds of false witness:
There is bearing false witness for another, where we give our witness for a person who is guilty.
There is bearing false witness against another, when we accuse a person falsely.
* (Note from MB: GREAT ADVICE BELOW)
Watson encourages those who are falsely accused with this assertion: 'A good conscience is a wall of brass, that will be able to stand against a false witness. As no flattery can heal a bad conscience, so no slander can hurt a good one' (The Ten Commandments, p. 173).
Gossip / False Witness
In this post I am going to show how Ken Gentry (as well as others) constantly break the 9th commandment. I really enjoy alot of what Gentry teaches on the dating of Revelation, as well as Preterism, but recently he has posted some videos against "hyper" preterism.
Even with all of the Partial Preterists condemning us EVERYONE here knows that ANYONE who uses the Partial Preterist hermeneutic will see that LOGICALLY it leads to Full Preterism. The Partial Preterists conscience will have to deal with this (SEE GREAT ADVICE BELOW AT THE END). So even with all of their condemnation all they do is bring attention to our view and we keep growing.
We learned Full Preterism by applying Partial Preterist hermeneutics.
Ken Gentry PARTIAL PRETERIST:
"Evangelical (and reformed) preterists (e.g., R. C. Sproul) take seriously the time texts of Scripture and apply those prophecies to A.D. 70, a redemptive-historical event of enormous consequence." “Think of it: If these words in these verses do not indicate that John expected the events to occur soon, what words could John have used to express such? How could he have said it more plainly?”
These are the same events.
Hebrews 10 (all Partials say this is AD 70)
13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 37For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
1 Cor 15
25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
These are the same events.
Matthew 24 (all Partials say this is AD 70)
12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
1 Cor 15
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
We are just using the Preterist rules laid down by Gentry himself.
2nd Coming
All Partials say this is AD 70.
Luke 21
5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." 20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Below is the same event as above.
Hebrews 9
1Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Hebrews 10 1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 37For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
Resurrection of the Dead
Daniel 12
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then <= (Quoted in Matthew 24:21 which all Partials say is AD 70). But at that time <= (The time of Matthew 24:21) your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. <= Resurrection of the dead 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" <= How long until the resurrection of the dead 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. <= The Jewish War was 42 months When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." <= AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem
Matthew 24 (all Partials say that this is AD 70)
21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. <= (Quote from Daniel 12) 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect <= Resurrection from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened <= Resurrection before the generation passes away
Logic / Hermeneutic Rules
Gene Cook Jr. PARTIAL PRETERIST:
"I hold to all of the time texts"
Jonathan Seraiah PARTIAL PRETERIST:
“If a text says something is ‘near,’ then we must accept it as true”
Ken Gentry PARTIAL PRETERIST:
"Evangelical (and reformed) preterists (e.g., R. C. Sproul) take seriously the time texts of Scripture and apply those prophecies to A.D. 70, a redemptive-historical event of enormous consequence." “Think of it: If these words in these verses do not indicate that John expected the events to occur soon, what words could John have used to express such? How could he have said it more plainly?”
I will demonstrate how hypocritical it is to tell people to hold to the time texts, but then say that Full Preterism is heresy.
Partial Preterists who claim to hold to the "time texts" should hold that they are already in the "city" of Revelation 22. There are time texts regarding the city. The city comes in Revelation 21. Therefore: all Partial Preterists should say they are in the city of Revelation 21 and 22.
Revelation 22
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
Revelation 21
1Then I saw a (A) new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, (B) "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be (C) no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
See A, B, C above and compare to A, B, C below.
Therefore:
(A) This event should be fulfilled according to Partial Preterists hermeneutics.
2 Peter 3
12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
(B) This event should be fulfilled according to Partial Preterists hermeneutics.
1 Thessalonians 4
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Thessalonians 5
9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him
(C) This event should be fulfilled according to Partial Preterists hermeneutics.
1 Corinthians 15
55"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
False Witness (excerpt from an article)
The Ninth Commandment
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
(Exod. 20:16).
This commandment binds the tongue as to its behaviour. Calvin remarks: "Just as the previous commandment ties the hands, so this one ties the tongue" (Brief Outline of the Christian Faith (1537), newly trans- lated by Stuart Olyott and published as Truth for All Time, Edinburgh: Banner of Truth Trust, 1998, p. 20). The Scripture calls slandering 'attacking with the tongue' (Jer. 18:18).
Augustine said, 'The tongue inflicts greater wounds than the sword.' Thomas Watson adds, 'The wounds of the tongue no physician can heal' (The Ten Commandments, London: Banner of Truth Trust, 1965, p. 169). He goes on: 'As it is a sin against this commandment to raise a false report of another, so it is to receive a false report before we have examined it . . . He that raises a slander, carries the devil in his tongue; and he that receives it, carries the devil in his ear.' Watson shows that two things are particularly forbidden in this commandment: slandering our neighbour and false witness against our neighbour. Again, there are two kinds of false witness:
There is bearing false witness for another, where we give our witness for a person who is guilty.
There is bearing false witness against another, when we accuse a person falsely.
* (Note from MB: GREAT ADVICE BELOW)
Watson encourages those who are falsely accused with this assertion: 'A good conscience is a wall of brass, that will be able to stand against a false witness. As no flattery can heal a bad conscience, so no slander can hurt a good one' (The Ten Commandments, p. 173).
Gossip / False Witness
8 Comments
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Comment by Mark Edward on April 15, 2009 at 12:42pm -
"Even with all of the Partial Preterists condemning us EVERYONE here knows that ANYONE who uses the Partial Preterist hermeneutic will see that LOGICALLY it leads to Full Preterism."
I have to emphatically agree with this statement. In 2005 I was a staunch futurist. By the end of that year, however, without much, if any, influence from outside sources, I was beginning to notice the flaws of futurism in regards to those "time-texts". So I searched the Bible, and I searched online to see what other people thought. This led me to discover the premise of preterism. So I spent a great amount of time studying, and after about a year, I considered myself a preterist, but it was only around that time that I learned there were two kinds: I fell under the category of partial preterist. I swore up and down that I would never turn to full preterism as long as I lived. Yet, after three more years of studying, I am a full preterist.
Anyone who studies preterism with a consistent hermeneutic, with the intent of believing the conclusions they draw, will eventually become a full preterist. Partial preterism relies on confronting material that will otherwise lead to full preterism, and then switching gears on hermeneutics. Although I try to be as fair as I can when it comes to these labels, partial preterism is, hands-down, inconsistent preterism.
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Comment by sam on April 15, 2009 at 12:59pm -
Mike,
Once again, your witness here is impeccable. I am sure they will just roll their eyes as they quickly scroll through your clear and plain presentation, sighing, "yap, yap, yap, blah, blah blah, you guys are all liars and woman haters." That's the response.
Dr. Gentry is a man of God, no doubt. He is sincere, I have to believe. His scholarship is A number one in terms of elucidation. He is convinced of the Reformed faith and the Westminster Confession, and as a committed pledge bceause of his alignments, adheres to that Confession as the best expression of God's Word. Therefore, all of his theology, regardless of how many times we can point out the contradictions, is done within that framework. I doubt he will ever step out of that, either. No problem. Creeds are an inherent part of the Biblical faith, and we have our own "framework" of eschatology that we interpret the Bible through. We all do it.
The problem, though, is as Duncan has shown using Beale. The weight of the evidence in terms of Scripture is that Beale is entirely correct. The parallels between I Th. 4 and Mt. 24 is obvious. The burden of proof is THEIR burden, not ours, since we agree with the majority on this point: they are parallel. They are speaking about the SAME PAROUSAIC EVENTS. This does not, of course, prove our argument, but it does shift the burden on them. It gives us the right to follow Gentry in Mt 24 and say, "amen, Mr. Gentry" and then follow him to I Th. 4 and say, "you want to run that by me again, Mr. Gentry?" With the detail of exegesis that Mr. Gentry is able to produce, I expect the same DETAILED EXEGESIS for the split between I th. 4 and Mt 24. I don't want to hear, "well, just because the words are the same, doesn't mean that its speaking about the same thing." That pat answer will not do. I need a deep-structure analysis. Until we hear something from a person of his caliber, a person of his ability to, in fact, produce such a detailed response (our most vocal critics can't do this), we are in the right to question the consistency of his view.
Partial Preterism within the Reformed community is a House Divided. It's a mess. It's our job to point out that mess. Now I hear of another "Reformed" view that has the Second Coming "beginning" in A.D. 70 and "ending" at the consummation at the end of history. So far, Jesus has been "appearing" now for 2,000 years. It's like, "let's do everything we can to affirm preterism without breaking the Confession or Creeds...let's see how close we can get to Full Preterism without actually affirming hyper-preterism..." We have seen the folly of such reasoning, and eventually that divided house will come tumbling down. The signs are already there.
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Comment by Duncan on April 15, 2009 at 2:45pm -
Looking at the chart again (below), Gentry says that everything in Matt 24:1-35 is AD 70 and everying afterward (to the end of ch. 25) is the final Second Advent:
1. Christ returns from heaven (1 Thess. 4:16, Matt. 24:30).
2. Accompanied by angels (1 Thess. 4:16, Matt 24:31).
3. With a trumpet of God (1 Thess. 4:16, Matt. 24:31).
4. Believers gathered to Christ (1 Thess. 4:17, Matt. 24:31, 40-41).
5. In clouds (1 Thess. 4:17, Matt 24:30).
6. Time unknown (1 Thess. 5:1-2, Matt. 24:36).
7. Coming like a thief (1 Thess. 5:2,4, Matt. 24:43).
8. Unbelievers unaware of impending judgment (1 Thess. 5:3, Matt. 24:37-39).
9. Judgment comes as pain upon an expectant mother (1 Thess. 5:3, Matt. 24:8).
10. Believers not deceived (1 Thess. 5:4-5, Matt. 24:43).
11. Believers to be watchful (1 Thess. 5:6, Matt. 24:37-39).
12. Warning against drunkeness (1 Thess. 5:7, Matt. 24:49).
Using this logic, items 1-5 should speak of AD 70. Items 6-12 (with the exception of 9 which also should speak of AD 70) speak of the supposed future Second Advent. That does not fit at all and totally tears apart Thess. 4-5 (just as it does Matt 24-25).
Duncan
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Comment by Michael Bennett on April 15, 2009 at 2:57pm -
Genrty doesn't know what he believes anymore...just that we are wrong - LOL.
http://www.reformed-theology.org/ice/newslet/dit/dit09.98.htm
Gentry:
However, having stated that, I do not believe I am THEOLOGICALLY committed to requiring that both judgments (A.D. 70 and Second Advent) appear in Matthew's Olivet Discourse. My evangelical creedal commitments require a Second Advent, to be sure, but not necessarily a Second Advent in Matthew 24-25. Indeed, these chapters could theoretically speak ONLY of A.D. 70 (even though I believe such would be quite awkward). I do not have any unyielding theological commitments against applying the entire Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24-25 to A.D. 70. If these chapters apply only to A.D. 70, so be it!
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Comment by Sharon Nichols on April 15, 2009 at 3:57pm -
Good post Mike.
Mike wrote: Genrty doesn't know what he believes anymore...just that we are wrong - LOL
Sounds like it! LOL We know what holds him back in partial-pret land though... his 'creedal commitments require a Second Advent".
Sam wrote: Now I hear of another "Reformed" view that has the Second Coming "beginning" in A.D. 70 and "ending" at the consummation at the end of history. So far, Jesus has been "appearing" now for 2,000 years. It's like, "let's do everything we can to affirm preterism without breaking the Confession or Creeds...let's see how close we can get to Full Preterism without actually affirming hyper-preterism..." We have seen the folly of such reasoning, and eventually that divided house will come tumbling down. The signs are already there.
I've also heard a little here and there about another preterist view and I'll admit I've thought the same thing you bring up. That they are "this" close to being 'hyper' but they're within the creeds so they are safe. They can be all over the map with their views, as long as it ends with a 2nd coming in the future.
I wonder is that part of the reason some of our opponents haven't disclosed their view in public in any kind of detail. ??? Well.. just wondering out loud.
Blessings,
Sharon
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Comment by Duncan on April 15, 2009 at 4:34pm
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"I wonder is that part of the reason some of our opponents haven't disclosed their view in public in any kind of detail. ??? Well.. just wondering out loud."
I think you are absolutely right Sharon. It is much easier to cry "heretic" than it is to explain why Matthew 24 is mostly about AD 70 but 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is about a future Second Advent. The "word of the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:15) that Paul is referring to in 1 Thess 4 is the Olivet Discourse. It is also hard to explain how the vast majority of Revelaiton is about AD 70 with only a brief snipet of the Second Advent to be found in Rev. 20:9 (this is Gentry's position). I do not see that the aformentioned postions to have been taught by the historic church in the last 2,000 years...
Duncan
www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com
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Comment by Sharon Nichols on April 16, 2009 at 7:42am
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Hi Duncan,
It does seem that way, thats for sure.
I do appreciate you posting the chart showing the links between Matt 24 and 1 Thess. It reminds me of the camparison between the Luke version and the Matt version of the Olivet discourse, in reply to those who say Luke is about AD70 but Matt is about the end of the world. huh?? Or when Bullinger says the Kingdom of Heaven is difference than the Kingdom of God. It can get a bit crazy.
You wrote, I do not see that the aformentioned postions to have been taught by the historic church in the last 2,000 years...
Yeah... thats the thing... as long as someone is teaching something that has the same 'ending', then how you get tto that ending doesn't matter - you're still okay. We must begin with a certain conclusion and go backwards from there!. I really don't think that is a proper way to go about it but, that's what church history says so we can't questions that! (geesh)
Sharon .
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1. Christ returns from heaven (1 Thess. 4:16, Matt. 24:30).
2. Accompanied by angels (1 Thess. 4:16, Matt 24:31).
3. With a trumpet of God (1 Thess. 4:16, Matt. 24:31).
4. Believers gathered to Christ (1 Thess. 4:17, Matt. 24:31, 40-41).
5. In clouds (1 Thess. 4:17, Matt 24:30).
6. Time unknown (1 Thess. 5:1-2, Matt. 24:36).
7. Coming like a thief (1 Thess. 5:2,4, Matt. 24:43).
8. Unbelievers unaware of impending judgment (1 Thess. 5:3, Matt. 24:37-39).
9. Judgment comes as pain upon an expectant mother (1 Thess. 5:3, Matt. 24:8).
10. Believers not deceived (1 Thess. 5:4-5, Matt. 24:43).
11. Believers to be watchful (1 Thess. 5:6, Matt. 24:37-39).
12. Warning against drunkeness (1 Thess. 5:7, Matt. 24:49).
To say that Matt 24 (or even the part before v. 36) is AD 70 and 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is a future Second Advent does not hold up. at all.
Duncan
www.TheAntichristandtheSecondComing.com